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Author Topic: THOMPSON is NOT MacTavish  (Read 6406 times)
Thomas Thompson
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Honesty is the Best Policy


« on: March 16, 2008, 01:42:18 PM »

                                                                                  THOM(P)SON IS NOT MacTavish
                                                                                                        Tom Thompson

 
   It seems there is a nodding head on the Internet who is mixing facts with complete fabrication.  I will present the facts; you make your own conclusions
     “Names ending in ‘-son’ or beginning with ‘Mac-‘ reflect an old practice whereby people were designated not by surnames,  but by patronymics (personal name based on the father’s given name). Thus Robert’s son John was John Robertson, his son might be Andrew Johnson, his son Peter Anderson and so on.” “To assume that there is ‘necessarily any kinship among ‘Robertsons’ is to be carried beyond rational thinking.” i 
     If you think your surname might be Scottish, I suggest you consult ‘The Surnames of Scotland by Dr. George F. Black’.  This is one of the ‘bibles’ for the genealogist;”
MACCOMBIE – Macconbe, Maccomie, Maccomie. G. MacComaidh, a contracted form of MacThomaidh, ‘son of Tommie or Tommy.’ In Perthshire frequently Englished Thomson. The ‘b’ was introduced into the name about the end of the eighteenth century. MacComy was a common surmand in Breadalbane 250 or more years ago. In the “Roll of Clans,” 1587, the Maccomies appear as “Clan M’Thomas in Glensche.”
MACLEHOSE – From G. Mac Gille Thamhas, ‘son of the gillie of Tammas,’ the Scots form of Thomas.
MacTavish – From G. Mac Tamhis, a form of MacThamhais, ‘son of Tammas,’ the low-land Scots form of Thomas.
MacThom – G. MacThom, ‘son of Tom,’ a diminutive of Thomas.
MacThomas – G. Mac Tomais, ‘son of Thomas,’
Tais – A surmane rec in mar 1600. prob varient of Taws.
Tamson – “Son of Tam,” Scots form of Thom-(as).
Taweson – Tawesson. An Englishing of MacTavish.
Taws, Tawse – A phonetic spelling of Gaelic Tamhas,  ‘Thomas.’
Thom – A diminutive of Thomas,
Thomas – A common Anglo-Norman personal name. It is from the Syriac teoma, Heb. Todm, ‘Twin,’ rendered by Greek Didymus in St. John, XI:16. In Gaelic it assumes the forms Tomas, Tamhus, Maccombie, and Macomie, q.v. As surname in Scotland it is of late introduction from England.
Thomason – Thomasson, ‘son of Thomas,’ q.v. Both forms are current in Shetland. Thomassone, Thomassoun, Tamesone, Thomessone.
Thomling – From Thom, q.v. +diminutive suffix-ling.
Thompson – ‘son of Thom.’ q.v., with intrusive p. This spelling is more commonly found in England.
Thomson -  ‘son of Thom.’ Q.v. A fairly numerous surname in Scotland.

   Could/would some Thomsons have chosen to join Campbell or even MacTavish in Argyll? Yes, apparently some did. There is a graveyard in Kintyre with Thomsons and Thompsons. Most are from the 18th and 19th century and are buried on land near MacTavish’s holdings. But they were buried as THOMSON OR THOMPSON, just as MacTavish were buried as MacTavish. Thom(p)sons did not become MacTavish! Just as there is no evidence that MacTavish became Thomson.

FACT – Clan MacThomas in Glenshe is listed as a Hielandis Clan and Thomesonis is one of 13 listed in the roll of the clannish that hes capitanes, cheiffs and chiftaneson of the bordouris, West Marche.  ii
Clan MacTavish is NOT listed on the roll of Clanns.  They might have been a clan, but they were so insignificant that they were beneath the notice of the Scottish Parliament.

FACT – The 1861 census, ‘Surnames in Scotland’ illustrates the great importance of clans and families in Scotland since the chiefs of these names “represent” such numbers of people, who, if effectively organized (indeed are as at present loosely so), exert a strong influence on Scottish affairs. Thomson is listed 5th with 32,560 families.  MacTavish is NOT listed in the first 50 names.iii 

FACT – MacTavish is listed as a sept of Campbell.
              Thomas is listed as a sept of MacThomas.
              Thompson is listed as a sept of Campbell.
              Thomson is listed as a sept of MacThomas.iv
               
FACT – MacTavish is listed as a sept of Campbell.
         Thomas is listed as a sept of Campbell, MacTavish.
         Thomason is listed as a sept of Campbell, MacFarlane.
         Thompson is listed as a sept of Campbell, MacTavish
         Thomson is listed as a sept of MacTavish.v
         
FACT - 36 Thomson armigers have been recognized in the last 300 years.  There have been only 3 MacTavish armigers: Lachlan, Simon, and Dugald.

QUESTION –In Adam’s book, he quotes Henry White: “Many of the Argyllshire MacTavishes now make Thomsons of themselves...” vi?  That would make them a sept of themselves.  His statement has no historical references and no numerous examples are offered as substantiation, as one should rightly expect. I could just as easily say “some MacTavishes now make Smiths of themselves” and have just as much validity.

QUESTION – The same author says “...whilst THOMSON of that ILK on the Border is regarded as a remotely connected or indeterminate connection to the MacTavishes.”vii By remotely connected does he mean far apart as the remote jungles of Brazil or maybe slight or faint; unlikely, not the remotest chance?viii  By ’Indeterminate connection to the MacTavishes’ does he mean ‘not determinate; not precisely fixed in extent, indefinite, uncertain, not clear, vague , or not established?ix
To believe from the ‘evidence’ provided what is intended, would make those promoting it at best uninformed and at worst intentionally fraudulent.

In summation: The use of meaningless terms is meant to confuse and muddle the issues. Patronymic surnames only became fixed in the last 200 years.  Surname evolution was slow and began in the lowlands long before it was recognized in the highlands.  Some names reflected places (towns, forest, or parks), others were crafts (weaver, smith, and tailor), still others were descriptors (large, tall, bald, crocked mouth,) etc. Thomas has been a popular name since biblical times. Thomas Campbell had a son named Thomason after HIS fathers’s first name. His son could then be named Alexander Thomason.  It was only after the 16th century that things became more fixed in the lowlands – in the Highlands, the 18th century.
In the Highlands, a person might leave his birthplace and move into the protection of a powerful leader - say Campbell.  The new immigrant could take the name of the property owner... thus Andrew Moffatt, moving onto Campbell estates, could become Andrew Campbell. If some Thomsons moved onto the lands of Argylshire for protection, would they have picked a wee little weak chief or a powerful chief like Campbell?  Think about it.

It is quite proper for some Thomsons to be septs of Campbell and other powerful chiefs.

 It is also quite proper for Thom(p)sons to restore the clan family recognized in 1587.








« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 10:39:35 AM by Mary » Logged
Graham Thompson
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2008, 02:23:04 PM »

I still say Thompson's fought next to McTavish's somewhere down th line. So in my eyes were all family. Unless you stab me in the back, then you better watch yourself.
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Guess what!? I'm here to spread my words of wisdom also. Everybody fear them!!! Hahaha
Mary
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2008, 03:44:19 PM »

Well, good for you, Graham.  Unfortunately, some of us have already been stabbed in the back!

It's very probable Thomsons fought at Culloden, although certainly not with the Dunardry MacTavish. They weren't there, no matter the claims that we have all seen. The Stratherrick MacTavish WERE there.

 At one time (and I don't remember the UK museum) there was a sword listed as a 'Thomson sword' and was an artifact from Culloden.

This confirms at least ONE Thomson................ from History of the Highlands by James Browne, 1843, p 356-
       "Besides the trials at Southwark, other trials took place at Carlisle and York, chiefly of prisoners taken at Culloden. Early in August, no less than three hundred and eighty-five of these unfortunate beings had been brought to Carlisle; but as the trial of such a great number of persons, with a view to capital punishment, might appear extremely harsh, a proposal was made to the common prisoners, who formed the great mass, the only one in every twenty should be tried according to lot, and that the remainder should be transported. This proposal was acceded to by a considerable number.
       The commission was opened at Carlisle on the eleventh of August, when bills of indictment were found against a hundred and nineteen persons. The judges adjourned to the ninth of September; and, in the mean time, they repaired to York, where the grand jury found bills against seventy-five persons confined there. The judges resumed their sittings at Carlisle for the trial of the prisoners there, on the ninth of September, on which, and the two following days, the prisoners, against whom bills had been found, were arraigned. Bills were found against fifteen more on the twelfth, making a total of one hundred and thirty-four. Of these, eleven pled guilty when arraigned; thirty-two entered the same plea when brought to trial; forty-eight were found guilty, of whom eleven were recommended to mercy, thirty-six acquitted, five remanded to prison till further evidence should be procured, and one obtained delay on an allegation of his being a peer. The judges resumed their sittings as York on the second of October, and sat till the seventh. Of the seventy-five persons indicted, two pled guilty when arraigned, fifty-two when brought to trial, and sixteen were found guilty, four of whom were recommended to mercy. All these received sentence of death. Five only were acquitted.
        Of the ninety-one prisoners under sentence at Carlisle, thirty were ordered for execution; nine of whom were accordingly executed at Carlisle on the eighteenth of October. The names of these were Thomas Coppock, (created bishop of Carlisle by Charles), John Henderson, John Macnaughton, James Brand, Conald Macdonald of Tyerndrich, Donald Macdonald of Kinlochmoidart, Francis Buchanan of Arnprior, Hugh Cameron and Edward Roper. Six were executed at Brampton on the twenty-first of the same month, viz; Peter Taylor, Michael Delaird, James Innes, Donald Macdonald, Peter Lindsay and Thomas Park. The following seven suffered at Penrith, viz. David Home, Andrew Swan, Philip Hunt, Robert Lyon, James Harvey, John Roebotham, and Valentine Hold. Seven out of the thirty were reprieved, and one died in prison. All those who were executed underwent the usual process of unbowelling.
     On the first of November ten of the prisoners condemned at York suffered in that city. The names of these were Captain George Hamilton, who had been taken at Clifton, Edward Clavering, Daniel Fraser, Charles Gordon, Benjamin Mason, James Mayne, William Conolly, William Dempsey, Angus Macdonald and James Sparke. And on the eighth of the same month, the eleven following suffered the same fate, viz. David Roe, William Hunter, John  Endsworth, John Maclellan, John Macgregor, Simon Mackenzie, Alexander Parker, Thomas Magrinnes, Archibald Kennedy, James Thomson and Michael Brady.....
the work of death also closed at Carlisle on the fifteenth of December by the immolation of eleven more victims, namely, Sir Archibald Primrose of Dunnipace, Charles Gordon of Dalpersy, Patraick Murray, Alexander Stevenson, Robert Reid, Patrick Keir, John Wallace, James Michel, Molineaux Eaton, Thomas Hays and Barnaby Matthews.
         Out of the seventy-seven persons who thus suffered, it is remarkable that, with the solitary exception of Lord Kilmarnock, they all maintained, to the very last, the justice of the cause for which they suffered.










       
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Booner
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 10:13:02 PM »

I've found one case where a Thomson was a former Mac Tavish.  Google has some out-of-copyright genealogic books available for free downloading on line. One that I've been looking at recently is  "A Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain" ... By Bernard Burke.. so if you Google the title you should be able to view the book.. I beleive it's in two volumes.  It's a scanned copy of the book so you can't highlight any of the passages, butg you can do a word search.... there's several families by the name of Thomson & Thompson in the book, and some of the Thomson arms we have listed on our website are for some of the persons in the book.

The Thomson former Mactavish is on page 126 of the first volume and concerns the family of Bonar.
 
Quote "Andrew Bonar, born 24 june 1708, married Anne Thomson, the daughter of Thomson of Chrichkton (which family anciently bore the name of McTavish and was a scion of the house of McFarlane of that Ilk)"  end quote. (added by Mary - the part that is quoted is fine, but the statement that he 'bore the name of McTavish' is not supported by any documentation. If it isn't documented, it cannot be construed as 'fact' or used in documentation of a name change - the only names verifiable were Bonar and Thomson)
They had 3 sons, but only one had children. That son was named Thomson Bonar b. 1743 and married Anne Thomson, his first cousin (dau of his mother brother). The family lived in Camden.

So we do have a MacTavish who became a Thomson; and this was before the '45 so it wasn't because he was a Jacobite and changed his name to avoid retribution.  I'm assuming the name change was due to the MacTavish comming out of the hills to live amoung the "Civilized" people so he changed his galic name to an anglesized one.

Unfortunatly, I don't have a mapf Great Briton so I don't know where Chrichton, Camden, or where the clan McFarlane lived.  It would be a help in trying to understand why the name change.  I'm now going to find out what a "Scion" is.

Booner

--check out the book. While most of the information is about the "landed gentry" of the 1900's, it does give a brief outline of the ansestors.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 11:37:33 AM by Mary » Logged
Mary
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2008, 01:14:59 PM »

WOULD YOU BUY A USED CAR FROM THESE PEOPLE??  WOULD YOU BUY A USED CAR FROM THESE PEOPLE??  WOULD YOU BUY A USED CAR FROM THESE PEOPLE??
Way back in November 2005, while much underhanded deception was underway among Steven and his "bought" accomplices, Patrick Thompson, Lieutenant to the 26th Chief and Historian to the 27th Chief, sent me a DVD of un-copyrighted data - including research submitted to Lyon Court to support Dugald's claim to the chiefship and used in various locations around the web. I simply cannot let this stand unchallenged. Here's just ONE of the documents: (my comments are in blue)

--The Houses of Clan Tavish--

The MacTavishes of Argyllshire, Perthshire, the Borders and elsewhere (HOW-- this was a WEE little clan and you are laying claim to the BORDERS and ELSEWHERE?! Check out the Hearth Tax data of 1694 to see this “GREAT AND POWERFUL CLAN” individuals and holding.)

Researched by
Patrick Thompson
Lieutenant to the 26th Chief of Clan MacTavish
Clan Historian to the 27th Chief of Clan MacTavish



The Manuscript History of Craignish, an historical record of the Craignish Campbells, compiled from ancient Campbell records, set to pen ca. 1720, attributes that two great clans stem from Colin Maol Maith, those being the Clan McTavish or Tomsons, and Clan McIver.  (Well, the TOMSONS were a great clan, but we AREN'T MacTavish!!!!)




The Chiefly House
-The House of Dunardry"“

From the Gaelic: Dun Ard Righ
Meaning: Stone fort of the High King.

Encompassed an area of approximately 5 to 12 square miles, or perhaps a bit less, (according to E. F. Bradford's Mactavish of Dunardry, page 1: Latin Charter 15 May 1669 - Archibald, 9th Earl of Argyll, is giving to his chosen Donaldum MakTavish the lands of Dunardry, Dunans, Bardarroch, Barindaf - a total of 7 1/2 mercatas (approximately equivalent of 1300 acres of which only 240 were areable - the remainder pasture, brushwood or moss.) This is HARDLY 5 - 12 square miles!!!! with 640 acres to a square mile!!!) in Argyllshire, both in North and South Knapdale. Its expanse was from Crinan on the west to Lochgilp on the eas, and just south of Kilmartan on the nor, to just north of Tarbert on the south. (Bradford also marks that the main home of the MacTavishes of Dunardry was 3 1/2 miles from Lochgilphead).
The lands of Dunadry were split in half in 1795-1801 with the building of the Crinan Canal.
Charter  as noted in the "˜Poltalloch Writs" and Manuscript "˜History of the House of Argyll".

Eventually all the Argyllshire lands of MacTavish were ceded to Dunardry, reverted to the Duke of Argyll, or to the Crown.

The House of Dunardry moved from Dunardry lands (which were sold) in 1785, and Kilchrist Castle at Stewarton, near Campbeltown, Argyll was built and occupied by the family for three generations (built by Dugald and Letitia MacTavish)   The Chiefly line relocated to Canada. (They claim with Dugald's son, William - all other accounts say Simon McTavish was Laird of Dunardry (this is stated in the Campbell history, also)

(The 'estate' consisted of a few farm houses - not estates of great size, repute, or anything else! In E.F. Bradford's book, page 42-47: (paraphrased from letters) ...in 1795 the main home of the MacTavishes was in disrepair and the 3 homes of the tenants, which constituted the total inhabitants of Dunardry, were torn down for the construction of the canal and relocated. The canal project paid for the destruction/relocation of the houses with a considerable part of the work done by the tenants themselves So, the 'estate of Dunardry' consisted of the MacTavish home and the homes of 3 tenants.

The "Cadet Houses" are as fictitious as everything else. The small, poor holding was only supporting SIX people in 1694 - THIS IS THE GREAT CLAN?
The 1694 Hearth Tax for Dunardry (arch. spelling) included:  
 
1694 Hearth Tax Knapdale, Scotland
Forename   Surname       Township          # Hrth/Pg #                Map location                 Original Spelling
 James   Boyd              Dunardry               1 p41     Dunardarie/ S of Crinan Canal            James Boyde
 Ane Myln                    Dunardry               1 p41    Dunardarie/ S of Crinan Canal                 
 Patrick   Christie          Dunardry               1 p41    Dunardarie/ S of Crinan Canal             Patrick Christie
 Callum   McCallum        Dunardry               1 p41     Dunardarie/ S of Crinan Canal            Calum McCallum
 Donald   McTavish       Dunardry               1 p41     Dunardarie/ S of Crinan Canal             Donald McCavish
 Ane Kiln                     Dunardry               1 p41     Dunardarie/ S of Crinan Canal                   


The Cadet Houses  

-The House of Rudle-

Rudalor Rua-duilh in Glasserie-North Knapdale
Meaning: Nether (Lower) Rudle
 
It encompassed the Dalriadic capital fortress of Dunadd,in Argyllshire, Knapdale, and reverted to the House of Dunardry, at least, by 1533.
Its remnants are seen as Rudle Farm and Rudle burn (stream). This was perhaps the oldest of the houses in Glassary-Knapdale, and was likely the Chiefly house and lands before Dunardry encompassed it.
Chartered as noted in the Manuscript "History of the House of Argyll".



-The House of  Scannish-

Possibly Skeodnis as its spelling has been obscurred in time.

The river Add (flowing near Dunadd fortress), is a tributary of the Skeodnish, in Knapdale.
Other sources put this House in Cowall, not Knapdale. If indeed it was located on the Cowall peninsula, it was perhaps the very oldest of lands held by the MacTavish outside of Knapdale-Glassary.  These lands then, were perhaps those conquested by Taviss Corr from the ancestors of the Lamonts. No charter in antiquity has been found for Scannish. Gee....no charter found but you can make this claim!



-The House of Leanachs-

(Lennox - A place of elms")

Not to be confused with the Earl of Lennox. Charter as noted in the Manuscript  "˜History of the House of Argyll"


-The House of Achachoish-

(ard achach " high fields”)

In the old parish Kilmichel-Glassarie, north of Knapdale. Charter as noted in the Manuscript  "˜History of the House of Argyll"


-The House of Barnakill-
(Barr na cille - summit of the church)
Its remnants known as Barnakill Farm, west of the old Clan Seat at Loch a Bharain.
Charter is indeterminate.


-The House of Ardtalnaig-

Near Breadalbane
The name ofArdtalnaig has changed over the years.
It appears as Ardintollanie (1640), Ardtollony (1564) and Ardentollenie (1536).
Crown Charter (by the King of Scots) To Donald McCawis
Crown Chartered  - Extinct by 1488,  the MacTavishes moving to Glen Quaich.


-The House of Garthbeg-

the Frazer   of  Lovat  McTavishes (Garthbeg/Stratherrick MacTavishes never lost their identity and were not called Fraser, except for one who fought at Culloden with the Frasers. Based on historical EVIDENCE, we believe that the Garthbeg MacTavish is the line that should hold the clan arms – not the Dunardry MacTavish.)

Also called Little Garth
Meaning: Small Warm House
Charter by Lord  Lovat

Tradition states that in the 13th or 14th century, a quarrel broke out between two brothers, the sons of the Chief. The dispute was decided by force. The elder brother, and heir, was slain in the fight, and the survivor known as Tavish Mhor, or Big Tavish, was banished from the Clan by his father, the Chief.  Accompanied by a small band of followers, they left the ancestral home of Dun-ArdRigh and went northward seeking a home. The main body of the Clan remained at Dun-ArdRigh. Those who followed Tavish Mhor seem to have retained an organized existence parallel with that of Dun-ArdRigh and to have continued its existence for nearly as long a period among the Families of Scotland. These settled on the Fraser Estates. Simon McTavish (later of Garthbeg) a wealthy fur trader from Canada, a descendant of Tavish Mhor, met with Chief Lachlan MacTavish of Dunardry, and they agreed they were kin. Simon desiring to have arms, requested of Lachlan, his distant kinsman and "œancestral Chief", to take out arms at Lyon Court, so as to establish the Ensigns of the Arms of MacTavish of Dunardry, and hence Garthbeg.  In making this contact, and requesting Arms through MacTavish of Dunardry, Simon MacTavish of Garthbeg reunited his kinsman with the House of Dunardry. (Simon didn't reunite the families - ALL references except those strewn around the internet by Dugald, Patrick, Patricia, etc. to promote Dugald's claim to the chiefship, clearly state that the Chiefly ARMS were disponed to Simon McTavish of Canada in exchange for him clearing Lachlan's debts and for ensuring the welfare of his children. Because Simon was of the Garthbeg line, he matriculated his arms as Simon MacTavish of Garthbeg. REMEMBER – Lachlan was not a clan chief.)


-Thomson on the Borders-

"Thomson of that Ilk"


Having an undetermined descent from the Argyllshire MacTavishes (1). (No reference as to WHERE this research is - and this is PATENTLY RIDICULOUS as will be proven further down.) It must duely considered that a large number of the Border region Thomsons comprise a large part of Clan MacTavish. (BASED ON WHAT- the fact that Dugald needed Thompsons to build a clan because there simply aren't enough MacTavishes? We ALL knew that was why he tried so hard to claim Thompsons/Thomsons - but in truth, his name "MacTavish" is nothing more than a patronymic as a descendant of THOMAS Cambel, Dugald's claimed ancestor (with 3 missing generations!!!)
These Thomsons, then, descendants of the Dunardry MacTavish, (WRONG) attempted to usurp the Arms of MacTavish for their own. (This is TRULY amazing and so creative, Patrick!  WHY? Because "Thomson of that Ilk" (whoever he was) had arms noted in the Workman's Manuscript in 1565-66 -230 YEARS BEFORE ANY MacTavish ever registered arms!!! And these arms carry the stag's head.....not a pig, clearly stating there was no relationship between Thomson and MacTavish) It is known that there were Thomsons living in the Borders who were cattle reivers, and these families are likely the grounds for Thomson of that Ilk. (3) Thomsons of that Ilk portrays a Stags Head as its Ensign Armorial. (4)  (Yeah, Patrick - it BELONGED to a THOMSON!)

Whether or not there ever were really were "˜Thomsons of that Ilk" is unconvincing.  Workman"s Manuscript (1565-1566), which is held at the Court of the Lord Lyon, has attributed arms to a wholly unknown Thomson (leader) and Lords Lyon have granted arms to numerous Thomson Petitioners based on them. One might then consider that Thomsons form a "˜community of multiple families", but certainly not a clan, (unrelated families can comprise a "house" or "clan" claiming allegiance to a chief, chieftain or captain - and  a "house" is of the same status as "clan." )as Thomson of that Ilk appears to be wholly unknown, totally elusive, and highly probable fictional figure, with no defined identity, specific lands, or historically associated documentation.  The Arms of Thomson of that Ilk, are, thus bound to a non-extant lineage. WHAT B.S.  Patrick has to try to denigrate and deny the existence of a Thomson head of a clan/house and subsequent Thomson matriculations  to create the myth that Clan MacTavish included Thomsons. Thomsons are identified as a CLAN by two separate Acts of the Scottish Parliament in 1587 and 1594 IN THE WEST MARCH, ON THE BORDER. The one Act lists clans of the Highlands, Isles and Borders and there is NO MacTavish (or any spelling variation) in that list of existing clans. There was no “clan” MacTavish, Macomish or anything else.

Lord Thomson of Fleet, the famous newpaper mogul, descended from the Thomsons on the Duke of Buccluech estates in the Border Region. And this pertains how exactly – he wasn't a MacTavish either!?(5)

References:
(1)   Researched by the Lord Lyon King of Arms, Sir Thomas Innes of Learney.
(2)   Note that MacTavish uses a Bucks Head.
(3)   The Clan Tavish, Duke Niall Diarmid Campbell
(4)   Workmans Manuscript
(5)   Burke"s Peerage and Barontage

Certainly after Culloden, MacTavish-Thom(p)son families expanded over the Globe, and many have lost their ancestral heritage. (Well, the THOM(P)SONS expanded over the Globe and continued to grow.....the half-dozen or so MacTavish, obviously, did not.)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 11:34:07 AM by Mary » Logged
Ernest Thompson
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2008, 06:49:57 PM »

I've found one case where a Thomson was a former Mac Tavish.  Google has some out-of-copyright genealogic books available for free downloading on line. One that I've been looking at recently is  "A Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain" ... By Bernard Burke.. so if you Google the title you should be able to view the book.. I beleive it's in two volumes.  It's a scanned copy of the book so you can't highlight any of the passages, butg you can do a word search.... there's several families by the name of Thomson & Thompson in the book, and some of the Thomson arms we have listed on our website are for some of the persons in the book.

The Thomson former Mactavish is on page 126 of the first volume and concerns the family of Bonar.
 
Quote "Andrew Bonar, born 24 june 1708, married Anne Thomson, the daughter of Thomson of Chrichkton (which family anciently bore the name of McTavish and was a scion of the house of McFarlane of that Ilk)"  end quote.
They had 3 sons, but only one had children. That son was named Thomson Bonar b. 1743 and married Anne Thomson, his first cousin (dau of his mother brother). The family lived in Camden.

So we do have a MacTavish who became a Thomson; and this was before the '45 so it wasn't because he was a Jacobite and changed his name to avoid retribution.  I'm assuming the name change was due to the MacTavish comming out of the hills to live amoung the "Civilized" people so he changed his galic name to an anglesized one.

Unfortunatly, I don't have a mapf Great Briton so I don't know where Chrichton, Camden, or where the clan McFarlane lived.  It would be a help in trying to understand why the name change.  I'm now going to find out what a "Scion" is.

Booner


--check out the book. While most of the information is about the "landed gentry" of the 1900's, it does give a brief outline of the ansestors.

G'day Booner,

You'll find that Chrichton to the Clan Chrichton who's Clan lands were in Dumfries and Galloway with their central point being "Sanquhar" which is situated on the A76 between Kilmarnock and Dumfries. Can't find Camden but the MacFarlane's Clan land is situated East of Campbell land in Argyle.
Hope that helps.

Ern
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Thomas Thompson
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2008, 08:43:54 AM »

In unrelated research I came across information that corrects the MacTavish chiefly line. They claim after the first unknown a "Baron of Argyll was believed to be first Dunardry 1st" He is correctly identified as---Doncanus MacThamais -Duncan Son of Thomas C1355. Actual son of Sir Thomas Cambel C1292.
"It would seem highly probable that This Sir Thomas was the ancestor of the later MacTavishes of Dunardry,the chief family of the name in Argyll, if not the actual eponym from which they took their name; the formation of clans as we know them today dates from this period, and only very seldom do they appear earlier. Sir Thomas was an important member of the Clan Campbell at the time when the chiefship was not clearly established, and there is strong reason to think that the later MacTavishes took their name from him." History of Clan Campbell, Vol 1 by Alastair Campbell 2000. Page 243-4   An apparent CLEAR CASE of patronymic surnaming where Thomas's son became "son of Thomas" or (in Gaelic)  MacTavish!!!  How conveniently they ignore patronymic naming conventions!!!!
   In the "Extract from POLTALLOCH WRITS' PAGES 138-142. The charter of "tonardare" (which backs up the Campbell History) lists the rent/lease of 7 1/2 Merkland from The Earl of Argyll to his beloved John McAllister VcEwin VcCaus and his son Dougall. in 1533, the Sasine the spelling is changed to VcKaviss. Next is Charter by Lord Lorne to the said John McCawis. Charter by the Earl of Argyll to Donald MacCawis 1669. Pecept of clare constat by Earl of Argyll to Archibald McCawis 1700. Precept of clare constat by Duke of Argyll to Dugald Mc Tavish as son and heir of Archibald McCzawis. This shows the time frame when the name MacTavish became 'fixed'.
       CHIEF EDWARD MACTAVISH IS A BLOOD LINE DESENDENT OF CAMPBELL or so it would seem.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 10:45:24 AM by Thomas Thompson » Logged
Barbara
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2008, 11:06:56 AM »

It certainly does seem that Chief Edward MacTavish is a blood line descendant of the mighty Campbells!   

Barbara
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2008, 08:14:29 PM »

In my earlier post, regarding -> Quote "Andrew Bonar, born 24 june 1708, married Anne Thomson, the daughter of Thomson of Chrichkton (which family anciently bore the name of McTavish and was a scion of the house of McFarlane of that Ilk)"  end quote.<-- It's interesting to note that the McTavish referred to was a decendant (scion) of clan McFarlane and not clan MacTavish. In a breif review of Clan MacFarlane on their website, they do not clain any MacTAvishes or any form of the "Son of Tom or Thomas" as a sept of their clan.  However, on the Electric Scotland wedsite, under clan Mac Farlane, they give Thomason as a sept, and the various forms of spelling for MacTavish as related to the MacFarlane clan.

So you can be a MacTavish and a member of a clan other than MacTavish, and change your name to Thomson.  All of which proves that what Clan MacTavish has said/is saying is so much BS.

Best regards,
Booner   
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Stirling Thompson
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 09:45:26 AM »

I can't seem to find on the website or forum any link to the Baronage article from 2003 following the re-grant of arms to MacTavish. I happened across it today and thought it worthwhile to post the link since it reinforces everything we've said all along.
http://www.baronage.co.uk/2003b/tavish.html
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Stu
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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2008, 10:57:52 AM »

YOU MUST TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE MACTAVISH SPLIT CIRCA 1300. CLAN MACTAVISH WAS A GREAT CLAN.THE PROGENITOR WAS THAMHAIS(BURIED IN KILMARTIN) IN 1300 THE 2 HEIRS/BROTHERS FOUGHT TO THE DEATH OVER BACKING BRUCE. THE VICTOR LEFT TO BACK BRUCE AND LATER FOUNDED STRATHERRICK/GARTHBEG.DUNARDRY WAS HEIRLESS WHEN OLDCHIEF DIED AND A COUSIN(A CAMPBELL) STEPPED IN. THE GAELIC FOR COUSIN IS COGHA PRONOUNCED CORR. THEREFORE WE GET TAUS CORR THE CAMPBELL PROGENITOR OF DUGALDS LINE. MEANWHILE THE REAL MACTAVISH WERE IN GARTHBEG.
NB.   DUGALD OF KILCHRIST WAS NEVER ACHIEFTAIN, HE WAS KNOWN IN CAMPBELTOWN AS MR OR SHERIFF MACTAVISH. HE WAS BURIED BY MINISTER JOHNSTON AS SIMPLY MR MACTAVISH. HIS SON WILLIAM DIED IN LIVERPOOL IN A PAUPERS GRAVE. ALSO MR MACTAVISH. AT THAT TIME SIMON MACTAVISH AND HIS SON- ALSO WILLIAM - BORE THE GRAVESTONES(AND BURIED WITH CHIEFLY REGALIA)OF CHIEFS OF DUNARDRY. SO DUGALDSCLAIMS AND THE PRESENT WEE SHITES ARE FALSE AND THUS, IMPOSTERS. HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? DUGALD DESTROYED DOCUMENTS AT LOCHGILPHEAD ARCHIVES_BUT THEY HAVE DISCS BACKUP!) AND LIED HIS HEAD OFF TO LYON.
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